Before digging in to the meat of this post, allow me to provide you with some background information, in the event that you aren’t well acquainted with the various aspects I intend to address.
EVN? Yes, that would be English-language Visual Novel. You can think of it in terms of non-Japanese people creating Visual Novels in the English language by default (as opposed to translating a Japanese-made VN into English).
EVN community? Well that’s a more nebulous term. There really isn’t too much of a community, per se. There are independent devs who crank out good quality titles on a regular basis, like Winter Wolves, Hanako Games, Sakevisual and a few others. There is the Teacup forum—which admittedly is not a high-traffic destination for the EVN community. But really, when I mention the “EVN Community”, it pretty much boils down to one central nexus of information: the Lemmasoft forums.
It’s the adopted home of Ren’Py. Basically, everyone who uses Ren’Py comes to the Lemmasoft Forums (LSF) in order to post information about their projects, get coding help or just generally hang out. It’s a comfortable place. The administration has endeavored to make it a helpful, encouraging location. And that’s where I believe the problem lies.
If you haven’t been to LSF, take a quick look around the place. Go ahead, it’s okay. I’m not going anywhere. Head over there and take five or ten minutes to look around…
…Back? Good. Now, what did you see? A lot of posts, huh? Did you glance at the “Work in Progress” forum? Did you notice how there were about 80 bajillion posts? That’s a good thing, right? I mean, that translates into a lot of interest in making EVNs. But, did you notice anything about the quality of those posts?
Let me be clear. I’m not even referring to the intrinsic artistic quality contained in most of those posts. Rather, I’m referring to the fact that the overwhelming majority of those posts amount to, “Hey, here’s an idea! I might do this. Or maybe that. Oh! This other thing might be cool…”. Basically, the forum has become flooded with people thinking out loud.
So, as a random passer-by who might be interested in seeing what the EVN community has to offer, what will that person do first? They’re almost certainly going to find the central nexus of information for EVNs. Or in other words, the Lemmasoft forums. And what will they find when they get there? A sea of inane, feckless jabbering, without substance. If they’re persistent, they might find a vanishingly small number of good titles, trying desperately to get out from under the crush of aimlessness.
While this is only anecdotal, I seem to be picking up on an undertone of discontent at LSF because of this scenario. Ren’Py-made games have reached a point where there are a number of artists and groups who are trying to create breakthrough EVN titles. But how are they supposed to gain any traction if the preeminent nexus for EVN information is overwhelmed with fluff?
There’s been a good analogy put forward that describes what’s going on, and I’d like to build upon it. Think of LSF as a basketball court. It’s a pleasant outdoor court in a local park. People just go there to play pickup games, horse around, hang out and have a good time. But suddenly, some college basketball players have showed up. And they want to use the court to play some serious games—to train and to advance their craft so they can make it to the NBA.
And that’s the question that faces the Lemmasoft forums and the EVN community. Should LSF change to accommodate those who want to make it to the NBA (support the further advancement of the media)? Or should LSF stay a casual basketball court for people to hang out at (encourage beginners)?
Personally? I believe that LSF wants the latter. It’s important to note that I’m not condemning such a decision. But, if that is what they want and if there are other people and groups out there that want to see serious advancement of the EVN media, I suspect that it’s time for a new community to come together. A community for those who have professional artistic work under their belt, or at the very least, have obvious talent and drive to see EVNs evolve into something greater. A community for people who have undertaken and completed projects in the past and have proven that they know how to successfully finish a task once they set out to do it.
Please note that in other homebrew video game communities (such as forums for RPG Maker XP and VX), it’s awfully common to find discussions about work-in-progress games. Creating a freeware game is more difficult than most people think — and so I believe that quite a few people benefit from feedback.
Furthermore, please keep in mind that there’s a difference between creating an independent game meant to be sold, and creating a freeware game. When a person is striving to make money from their content, that individual has more motivation to get the product done and distributed. The indie game creator needs feedback in order to make sure his/her audience enjoys the art, characters, themes, gameplay, etc. But when a person is making a fangame or a freeware game, that individual may not have much motivation to create more than a demo. The freeware game creator will benefit from feedback — it might help him or her to stay on task.
As recently as 2003, the western visual novel scene didn’t exist. Now eight years later, there’s some remarkable freeware and indie games. Sturgeon’s Law does, and always will, apply. And I don’t expect the fandom will ever become large or influential. But one by one, people have been writing and sometimes finishing their stories. So if you want to help it grow, then be sure to keep creating and keep debugging your game.
For me, this isn’t so much a matter of commercial versus non-commercial. There are plenty of experienced, talented artists who create work (and I’m not just referring to visual novels) for free. They create “art pieces”, which aren’t created for any sort of profit, but for creative expression.
What I don’t see on Lemmasoft, and what I’d like to see develop is a community of the experienced, or of advanced VN creators. The intention isn’t to flaunt talent or stroke any egos. The simple fact is, people with different abilities and knowledge want to seek out environments that foster and cater to their skill level and that share similar values.
As I think many are aware, LSF had made it clear that it wants to remain a friendly hangout spot to encourage people of every stripe to make VNs. That’s cool. In fact, I’d say that’s necessary. But, I think there’s just too much cruft that would need to be eliminated on LSF in order to cater to advanced artists. And in the act of doing so, it would basically destroy what LSF strives to be.
What I’d like to see is a forum where, instead of a common thread being a question, “What’s a good program with which to make sprites?”, to being a question like, “Can this plug-in filter be used in Photoshop CS5?”.
As for discussion about work-in-progress games, I agree that it’s commonplace. But in the case of LSF, I’m pretty tired of seeing WIP threads that contain little more than random thoughts. In my estimation, a WIP forum is one in which a creator has something of consequence to show the community. A script, maybe even if it’s just 50% complete. Character sketches, audio tracks, a user interface, etc.
At the very least, I think there should be a separate “Throwing Out Ideas” forum for that sort of free-form discussion. A place where people can brainstorm their ideas. Once they’ve worked on those ideas for a while, have determined that it can make a viable game, and they’ve done SOME work on said game, it should be posted in and discussed in a WIP forum.
LSF always lacked a more proper management; it’s also the thing that unarguably made it look and feel as it is nowadays. You might create new forums, threads etc. but it won’t change anything. To be honest, LSF was always more of a place for the visual novel fans/amateurs/wannabies to hang out and chit-chat about “this and that”, than creating a game with decent quality. LSF was never SERIOUS, nor PROFFESIONAL. We might all feel pity Renpytom didn’t created his own hub for game designers using Ren’Py, but it was his choice. Not that it would change much anyways…
It’s quite obvious, that LSF, which was your starting ground won’t be enough for the likes of you anymore once you move on, and by the time you honed and mastered your skills you see that there’s a chasm dividing you and the rest of people, who just begun. I wouldn’t even call them “begginers”, because most of them aren’t even 100% serious about their goals. They’re doing it just for fun. Gods be praised, if something good comes out of that. That’s how world works – you won’t change it, no matter what… and to be honest, it’s better to leave it like that. If you feel proffesional and honest about what you do, you won’t need LSF anymore, at least not as a steppingstone for your work. Trust me.
Everyday, we’re surrounded by the sea of crap. This is what makes those occasional, little gems of art shine even brighter.
I hear what you’re saying. And I honestly can’t disagree with it.
But if the half-hearted, if the dabblers and experimenters have a comfortable, encouraging forum to hang around, it’d be nice if the experienced, serious and more advanced creators had a place to do the same.
Aw, what the heck…As a wise man once said, “Don’t beg for things. Do it yourself or you won’t get anything”. I’ve been toying around this PHPBB software for a while. This is the sort of design/layout that I’ve been thinking of:
http://www.errantheart.net/PHPBB3/index.php
I’d be pleased if anyone has any comments on the place – additional forums, additional rules, formatting changes, etc. This is still just a nebulous concept. I’d welcome any input from anyone who might be interested in creating a place for serious/advanced VN creators.
You can always start your own place, if you feel the need for that, and see if it works out. You will never now, if you won’t try, and that’s the way to go… though I have one thing to say – if you feel serious about it, I’d be better to separate those forums from your own work. If it’s not a problem, you might even consider hosting two entirely separate forums – one for the Errant Heart project, and another as that new “pro vn gamedev hub” of yours.
This will not be an easy task. I’m still wondering, if western visual novel community is in need of such a place – after all, there’s only a couple of decent groups releasing games on a regular basis, and a handful of people, who are really devoted to this. It’s a small community… might be still too small for that kind of thing.
But if you already decided about that… You will have to start from anew – give people a place where they will be able to discuiss their problems, ideas and seek for help. You will need a decent server with no traffic limits. This will also mean, you will divide people even more by creating a new group of those who are “priviledged” to be called proffesional game designers amongst western visual novel community. Still, it won’t prevent that place from being flooded by newbies and average users… and you will have to cope with all of that as a moderator of this movement. That’s a lot of work and responsibility. Are you really sure you’ll be able to manage it all out?
The biggest problem is that it’s all been attempted before. Years ago, there was the VJutsu forums, which aspired to just be a hub of VN and other otaku news, that just fell off the map after a couple of months. It never got the pull of people LSF did and never would have either. What’s the lure of a less-populated Lemmasoft?
Much more recently is the already-mentioned Teacup forums. And on paper, it sounds like exactly what you want. A forum made and run by VN-making vets who tired of the LSF atmosphere. But as you can see, it’s a very static and unlively place. Granted, it is also very insular, made to pander to the very circle of friends who it was created for, and rarely incorporating anyone else. But any movement to secede from Lemmasoft to build a hub for veteran or advanced visual novel creators will appear (emphasis on *appear*) to carry the banners of elitism. I don’t think anyone believes being greeted with up-turned noses is pleasant, so would this forum be able to shake that impression?
It also gets dramatically more complicated when you delve into the details. What actually defines an “advanced creator”? Are there some exact and quantifiable qualities that are easy to find and clear cut to sort? Who ultimately makes that decision and who, if anyone, is gonna wield their authority (or ban-hammer) against those who don’t meet the requirements? What impressions are those actions gonna give off to newer members, even those who might fit the bill? How are the rules and regulations set forth, that might restrict what can/can’t be posted and delete the offending threads, not gonna just make more stagnant water, like at Teacup?
I personally believe setting out to make a new hub is a futile enterprise. The effort expended would be better spent just elevating your own presence largely through the use of social media. I think, in some sense, there’s already a boundless, invisible community of the advanced creators on Twitter, where talent incorporates more talent in its own circles, and volley messages back and forth. I believe the developer blog is still a great tool, and its easy to gain exposure via Planet EVN. You brush by the populated LSF scene that way, without getting completely drowned in noise (After all, it’s what got me here). Tumblr isn’t a bad way to go either, maybe Facebook pages or whatever else. But I believe that forums or other centralized hubs aren’t really the way to go, because you’ll never get the results you truly want out of it.
I appreciate the insight. And I believe you’re absolutely dead-on with a number of your observations. But I don’t intend to merely cull the Lemmasoft user list for members. Having worked and interacted with a number of other artists during my Tokyopop days, I hold out some hope that they can be intrigued by the prospect of Visual Novels and might lend their support.
It’s no guarantee. And yes, it will be a lot of work. And yes, there’s a really good chance of failure. But, I at least want to say that I tried.